welcome to Sputnik orbiting the world
with me George Galloway and me gayatri
30 years ago the Battle of our grief
took place in South Yorkshire in
England's green and pleasant land it was
not a war though it looked and felt like
one instead it represented the
abandonment by the British state of
social peace the militarization of the
police in a trades dispute and the
dereliction of journalistic duty by the
broadcast media with which we have sadly
become all too familiar the police
attacked the miners the footage however
was reversed to show the opposite heads
and hearts were broken society was split
down the middle something in Britain
died that day the miners were defeated
and a slow descent of working-class
power to resist begin result is all
around us the minors including those
bludgeon that or grief have never
received justice the now discredited
leadership of the South Yorkshire
Constabulary has never been held to
account but the campaign continues and
for the miners of our grief that
campaign is led by Barbara Jackson of
the or grief truth and justice campaign
she joins us now thanks for doing so
Barbara just tell the viewers because it
was 30 years ago what happened at or
grief specifically the 18th of june
nineteen eighty-four was when there was
a mass picket of the old grieve coking
plant 10,000 miners were there with
5,000 police and the police were there
in riot gear with dogs and horses them
it was a lovely summer's day the miners
were in trainers jeans and t-shirts and
at the end of that day 95 miners had
been arrested and charged with riot and
unlawful assembly charges that at the
time carried a life sentence and many
broken heads also and many many broken
heads in fact some people didn't go to
the hospital because they knew the
police would follow them there and try
to arrest them and when Gareth pierced
the solicitor at the time came up to in
to view the men in the cells she was
horrified by what she found she said
that the needed doctors and nurses not a
solicitor and the police's duty of care
to people who are arrested and
completely in every way broken down that
day of course it had been a slow burn
the police were increasingly militarized
throughout the dispute police forces
were switched around so that local
police were not policing local
situations which was a new thing the
police were acting as a national force
for the first time people were stopped
in buses on their way to pick it in
different coalfields turn back again a
new thing but somehow our grief felt
like a bit of a turning point at least
do me did it do you I don't know whether
it felt like a turning point but it's
that part of the strike that most people
remember you don't have to go into great
detail most people are familiar with the
name of all grieve but we're quite clear
as the campaign that there were many or
grieves going on all around the coal
fields during that strike but all grief
was the big set piece with mass numbers
of pickets and mass numbers of police
and the resulting of the media
information that day showing the police
the miners charging not the police
charging set the tone for how that day a
tour group was received by the general
public it was the case of who gets their
version out first tends to be believed
there are horses of course yeah yeah it
was really a cavalry charge it was a
cavalry charge and like one of the
miners said at the time if you've got a
40 ton horse charging towards you you
don't stop to ask what this is all about
and most of the injuries that the miners
received where to the back of the head
the back and the shoulders because they
were just running away they didn't know
what was happening and the 90
five who were picked up and arrested
were people who were just there not
doing anything of any consequence there
weren't officials in the end um they
held in the main no branch you know
authority a little level they were just
people who were easy targets pictou
confused and easy for the police to deal
with do you recall what the media
treatment of the Orgreave battle was
like it was quite shocking one of the
miners who were there it was there that
day when he got home his parents had
already seen the footage and his mother
said to an lad what on earth have you
been doing out there even she from a
mining family and a mining background
accepted the bbc's footage that day that
showed the miners charging and not the
police and that set the tone for the
rest of the media to follow as the
accepted truth of that day and it was
years and years later that the BBC
finally apologized or gave some sort of
apology and put it down to a technical
issue that they were using some new film
and quite a low level technician didn't
really know what he was doing with that
film but the media you're a band bling
we believe it if you like a violin but
the media jus as the dispute settled
down into its longevity and intensity
the media gradually gradually shifted to
accepting the government's version of
what was happening and the media played
a quite shocking and disgraceful role
especially in the return to work
scenario where they just accepted the
Coal Board figures about the number of
men who'd return to work and entered
into a description of it's a drip it's a
trickle it's a torrent it's a rush and
really really played you know on that
sort of imagery and virtually did the
government's job the leadership of the
South Yorkshire police
has since been comprehensively
discredited not for this but for other
crimes and misdemeanors how much of a
role do you think they played in this or
was this just the zeitgeist the time had
come to attack a huge body of the
British working class well the time had
come to attack a major trade union it
was already there in they Ridley plan
that was out like Nicholas Ridley the
thatcherite Trade Minister Industry
Minister yeah back in the seventies he
laid a list of things out there a tory
government should try to achieve when
they came to power and taking on a major
trade union was one of them but what the
country didn't allow for was that the
police horses all over the country would
come together almost as the national
police force run out of the national
reporting century New Scotland Yard and
guided through that year of the strike
by different chief constables and the
police had got a reciprocal arrangement
to exchange PSU you units police support
units if one police was needed help
eunuchs were brought in and exchanged
and in general it doesn't appear that
the south yorkshire police were there or
grieve if you look at the police
statements from the time it was police
from Bedford sure and merseyside and
Manchester that were largely arresting
people that day the south yorkshire
police seemed to be completely out of
the picture and we feel that that was
the decision taken with foresight that
the south yorkshire police would have to
police those communities in the future
when the strike was over so they were
deliberately held back or grieve and
didn't appear to take part in it last
year nearly 30 years on Ed Miliband the
Labour leader calls for an official
inquiry how has that received by your
campaign and moreover the communities
it's been received a fairly positive
late but with hesitations I mean I
shared a public platform at Hatfield
mean no pic club in doncaster last me
with EDD Miliband and at that private
meeting he made a commitment to an
investigation into the injustice of all
grieve and he then reiterated that on
local TV so it became a public
commitment but an investigation can mean
anything that you want it to mean we as
the campaign want a full public inquiry
looking at the policing of the whole
strike and the political interference by
the tory government of the day but that
gives us a start if we get a Labour
government in May to put pressure on
that commitment to an investigation to
become a reality and it means that we as
campaign can play a part in that because
who's going to lead an investigation
what their de terms of reference going
to be and we would want to pay a part in
Europe you late in that yeah last year
for the show we Vox popped people going
in and out of the tu SI headquarters in
London in great Russell Street that was
until a security man was sent out to
tell us to go away and an official of
educ said and I quote the minor strike
has nothing to do with us and of course
that's the problem isn't it because the
miners were defeated because a
working-class movement that ought to
have known that they would be next did
not come to their side when it counted
how do you feel about that now after all
these years well we still feel and
bitter that the tu SI and other major
unions weren't able to deliver
industrial muscle to help us during that
strike and I'm quite shocked to hear
what you've just said about the magma
sure
yes in anything to do with us because
the there has always been some people
who wanted to disown the strike during
the strike and afterwards they feel
embarrassed by what took place in the
strike and the outcome of the strike and
there's always been this thing in unions
about do we go for collective action or
do we keep quiet and just be a service
union so a lot of those conflicts played
themselves out well you must all hang
together or you surely will hang
separately together Yarbrough jackson of
the or grief truth and justice campaign
the very best of luck thank the next
stage yeah the battle thank you coming
up after the break another hero of the
British Mineworkers but this time
speaking about all things Russian
associate editor of The Guardian Sheamus
mill we'll be right back
you
welcome back to Sputnik bombers in the
channel warships off the coast Britain's
front line being redrawn in Latvia if
you believe the British media and some
government ministers it is only a matter
of time before the Red Army complete
with snow on their boots turn up on a
high street near you how hot is the new
cold war going to get that is the
question helping us answer it is the
Guardians associate editor Sheamus Milne
Sheamus thanks for joining us NATO are
not very happy with you for pointing out
a contrary view to this dominant
narrative which we now have in this
country which seems to be reaching
almost hysterical levels that the
Russians are coming I think in the last
few weeks and months it has reached a
fever pitch I mean we've got the level
of media coverage now of this crisis in
the Ukraine and Russia's role in it and
Russia's role in Europe and Putin in
particular has become hysterical and
completely unrelated to reality and I
think it is quite dangerous I think you
they're whipping up a kind of war fever
and preparing people for a level of
intervention that you know British
people people in this part of the world
in Western Europe are actually not
committed to at all nor in the United
States they're trying to lay the ground
for a level of of action in relation to
Russia and the Ukraine that I think is a
unjustified and be not at all supported
by public opinion but these things have
the momentum of their own and you know
the last few weeks we've seen decisions
to send American and British troops and
relatively small numbers we're talking
hundreds but still troops to Ukraine
which is the front line which is not a
member of NATO to a own where there is
conflict in which there's a civil war
going on which Russia is supporting one
side in that war and the United States
Britain France and the other NATO powers
are supporting the other side a
government that came to power in an
illegal overthrow of an elected
government and this is a dangerous
situation which can spin out of control
so I think it's necessary for us in this
part of the world to be
actually much tougher with our own
governments and our own military and our
own media about the stories they're
telling about this situation because
it's something that can lead to disaster
well 100 years ago it did we got into
the First World War because if we didn't
do this now we wouldn't be able to do it
later and one it was like a train really
the the war or card because of
timetables railway timetables I spoke
yesterday in Parliament to Colonel Bob
Stewart former British military
commander now a member of parliament and
I pointed out to him the rather obvious
point ought to be obvious to him more
than anyone that this confrontation with
Russia is well a trifle dangerous
because if it gets hot that the shooting
starts this is not Yugoslavia you're
talking about neither is it Iraq Russia
is a nuclear-armed superpower in which
the vast majority of the people in the
state are behind the government in the
stand that they are taking is it really
dangerous can it turn hot I don't think
it's the intention of either the Western
powers nor the Russian government for
that to happen I don't think the West
intends to fight in Ukraine although
it's clearly drawn the line in the NATO
states that it's set up in the former
Soviet Union particularly the Baltic
States but as with as we're talking
about the you know these things have
their own logic and they can lead to
their own forms of escalation if for
example as there is incredibly strong
pressure in the u.s. from both main
parties Republicans and Democrats to arm
the Ukrainian government which has been
resisted up to this point by France and
Germany in particular if that takes
place and they send heavy weapons to the
Ukrainian forces by the way which
include fascist militias fighting on the
front line in eastern Ukraine with names
like the Azov battalion where they have
swastika like symbols on their arms and
belief in racial superiority and white
supremacy these are some of the forces
that we're talking about arming and
supporting that the West is supporting
the moment if that happens and the
Russians then increase the level of
supplies
with heavier weapons to the rebel camp
in eastern Ukraine you know the
potential for that conflict spinning out
of control is very serious and in fact
you know we've had British generals you
know like the former British
representative at NATO who's been
speaking out in last week saying just
this that the potential for what he
called total war is there and his
argument is you know that the British
government NATO has take this more
seriously that military spending must be
increased a lot of people are using this
conflict as a way to try and protect the
Army and the armed forces from cuts and
to you know spend more on weapons but
you know even if people like that
themselves are saying it I think we
should take it seriously and wind down
the config and raise the pressure in
this country and other parts of the
world to wind down this conflict to
de-escalate the conflict we've gotta at
the moment we've there's a ceasefire in
eastern Ukraine which is more or less
holding and then some of the heavy
weapons have been pulled back from the
front line as a result of this so-called
Minsk agreement that was signed last
month but the sending of troops by
Britain and America to Ukraine to Kiev
actually explicitly breaks that
agreement that was signed the ceasefire
agreement with article 10 in that
ceasefire agreement the Minsk agreement
stipulates withdrawal of all foreign
forces from Ukraine and that is being
breached by our own government by the
United States government directly but
you know that agreement is likely to
break down again because it doesn't deal
with the underlying lying causes and
we're likely to see a new escalation in
the months to come so we need to be
promoting I think quite seriously and
pressing for an alternative and an end
to this ludicrous anti Russian
propaganda which is blinding two people
to the reality of what's going on and
making a genuine debate and dialogue
about what's taking place impossible
because anything that contradicts the
NATO line and the Western line which
overwhelmingly dominates the Western
media is immediately dismissed as
Kremlin propaganda whatever the truth of
it James Joyce's mentioned that the
people of Russia support the leader in
the current state of affairs it's at the
case though how is the sphere in Russia
post the murder of the opposition leader
support
it can mean different things I mean
Putin is a authoritarian conservative in
many ways and lots of people in Russia
as well ofcourse in the rest of the
world that don't buy into that at all
but in terms of his defending Russia's
security and standing up against
American domination and NATO
expansionism throughout Europe and
beyond of course he has the overwhelming
support of the Russian people and of
course the sympathy of people throughout
the world who want to see a more
balanced global order yeah now actually
in terms of what the stance that he's
taken in relation to the Ukraine you
know Putin is in many ways a sort of
centrist figure balancing the factions
on different sides and the pressures on
different sides the majority of people
in Russia I think not just from opinion
polls but from all sorts of other
evidence in many cases would would like
a tougher position faint stronger
support and of course the rebels
themselves in eastern Ukraine many of
them believe that Russia is not offering
nearly enough support but I think that
just reflects the fact that Russia has
been pushed back and back and back in
the past 25 years 20 years since they
all end of the Cold War that commitments
that were made and they were made of
their records in the American archives
show that that NATO would not be
expanded to the east were broken and
later was pushed right up against the
Russian border into the former Soviet
Union and in the end you know Putin has
drawn a line on that and he drew it
first in Georgia in 2008 and again in
this conflict in Ukraine where the West
intervened to support the overthrow the
anti-constitutional overthrow of the
elected government a year ago which
created this crisis and triggered the
rebellion in the in the east of the
country and that's something which
clearly has the support of the majority
people in Russia and of course many
people in the Ukraine this joker from
NATO I debated him in the hay on wye
festival the how the light gets in
festival and he had only days before
beam Britain's representative on the
NATO military command and he explicitly
said that British people have to get
used to the fact that their sons may
have to
died in Latvia because that is now our
frontline the audience was quite
startled most of whom couldn't have
placed Latvia anywhere on the map and
yet in a way Britain is sleepwalking
into this position shouldn't we should
we start at no war with Russia campaign
or stop the war coalition really take on
this subject otherwise we might end up
in the water the mother of all wars yeah
I mean it's a very dangerous situation
the Baltic states were incorporated into
NATO and now it's said by defenders of
NATO and NATO itself that they had every
right to join whichever Alliance they
wish to which of course that the
technical level is true but that that
alliance doesn't have to accept them as
members and it has impact on other
states in the in the region of woods of
what of the Republic of Ireland had
joined the Warsaw Pact exist I think
you're right and so what's really needed
in Europe is an overarching security
system that includes everybody including
Russia that doesn't exclude actually the
biggest country in Europe Creek creates
a genuine security system for everybody
and winds down these conflict
confrontations rather than winding them
up we don't want to be in a
confrontation with Russia over the
Baltic States and there's no need for
that whatever it is NATO's existence
which is creating these conflict and its
and its expansion to the east so I think
we need to ring the bell on this and
sound the alarm because it is running
out of control and it can go somewhere
which nobody wants on either side of
this confrontation very briefly then
watch all about Russia is not a
communist country Putin is not a
communist Russia is a capitalist economy
like all others in in Europe what's the
real reason behind this belligerence
towards Russia towards Putin well I
think it does go does come down to this
drive by the United States and its
allies to use the collapse or so Union
to take control of the continent to
ensure that American power is embedded
into the European system indefinitely
and that was some
thing that was specifically laid out by
the United States government in the
aftermath of the collapse of Soviet we
got the documents showing that and it's
also in the case of Ukraine it's been a
prize as the Americans have said for
decades to effectively get control of
Ukraine because Ukraine is economically
all there to basket case at the moment
it has huge economic potential and
always has had and allied with Russia or
you know part of a wider block including
Russia gives Russia more strength than
the United States and its allies want to
see it have in the end this is about the
attempt to maintain a unipolar world or
an American and Western dominated order
which has broken down in the last few
years and that's what's created I think
some of this conflict but from the point
of view of most people in the world they
want to see a multipolar order they
don't want to see a global system
dominated by one power and its allies
which overwhelmingly dominates the world
militarily and that's something we're
seeing played out in these conflicts so
much man thank God for you I know it's
your turn to tell us what you think
through the portals of social media
what's rattling gayatri I asked what's
next for Russia's opposition love truth
says the US will try to force many coups
by paying communist and far-right
nationalist well dont la might happen on
the miners and lots of response on that
shows you that it really still is all we
still vivid again David Taylor says why
did they lose because not enough of the
working class supported them and divided
before well that sums up couldn't put it
better than that well that's all of you
cut out for this week which alas means
that's the end of the show stay in touch
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Sputnik on Russia today goodbye from me
Gayathri I'm from me George Galloway
it's been marvelous